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Re: [IP] Diabetic mistaken for drunk

Kirez Korgan wrote:

> There have been a number of messages, now, saying that someone should not
> be driving while hypo. I cannot imagine anything more obvious or less
> controversial, yet IP members are writing it as if by saying this they were
> disagreeing with what I wrote. Major non sequitur.

My only discomfort with what you first wrote, Kirez, was your highly loaded and
interestingly qualified (with the "For once") statement:

> For once I hope this guy sues and sues and sues and gets a good deal of
> money -- enough to send a very clear and distinct signal to EMTs and police
> and similar groups everywhere -- perhaps enough that people will start
> emphasizing, in training programs, the recognition of diabetics.

In my books,  "the ends" don't "justify the means", and I fear that if things
proceed as you hope in this instance, even "the ends" may themselves be tainted
by all kinds of undesirable side-effects (for example - unfavourable
stereotypes about diabetics). I respect your knowledge but I disagree with your
opinion and even some of your analysis in your follow-up response.

> Kirez Korgan wrote:
> Note that a lawsuit can be brought against a diabetic who is irresponsible,
> just as it can be brought against a police department ("to serve and
> protect"??!!) that substitutes brutality for competence.

Yes, and if you had ALSO stated that you hoped that the state "sues and sues
and sues the driver (note that I purposely didn't qualify him as diabetic,
here) and gets a good deal of money - enough to send a very clear and distinct
signal that people who drive cars must accept responsibility for their actions
(though I appreciate that this opens up another whole can of worms -
institution versus individual and all of the related bias issues), then maybe
our perspectives would be a moving a little closer - especially if we both
decided that both the police and the diabetic were wrong in this particular
instance and pehaps we should just keep money and the lawyers out of the

> And is it known that
> hypoglycemia can occur, even if only a small portion of the time, without
> the awareness or the ability of the diabetic to identify that he is
> hypoglycemic and act to correct it? Well, then, diabetics *as such* should
> not be allowed the privelege of engaging in those activities. The
> paternalistic state should protect us by so legislating. (I realize that
> nobody has argued this; but the legal methodology suggested is equivalent.)

Yup. I didn't argue it (since my real preference would be to live in an
educated responsible anarchist society where I, rather than a legislature, set
the rules I live by), but I do run my life in accordance with such a code. (I
can't help it - my mind works that way - I'm a mathematician!).

>  Sorting out the pros and
> cons, the secondary and tertiary and extended consequences of such
> lawsuits, the legal system which enables such lawsuits, etc, is a
> complicated task. It is also a science which I have been priveleged to
> practice beyond the cutting edge; the advances in this legal reasoning will
> not be felt in our society, nor will most judges, justices and legal
> practitioners be aware of these advances, for some decades.

Yes, I noted this above amongst my fears about undesirable side effects...

> It is much less common for a nurse or doctor
> in a private practice to be so incompetent, and to substitute extreme
> measures for competence, judgment and efficiency. One of the reasons forthis
> is the *precedent of litigation*

 It is unfortunately also possible that judgements and actions will become
dangerously (for some) conservative in a highly litigous society, and I
certainly don't view my Canadian physicians and police personnel as being
inferior in terms of competence, judgement or efficiency to their more
frequently sued counterparts south of the border... In other words, I don't
really believe your statement to be universally true, but may concede that it
may be true in  American society.

All I can really say to sum up is that it disturbs me a great deal when people
do something which is really stupid or, worse yet, morally abhorrent, and then
are encouraged to personally capitalize on their actions for the apparent good
of society. I don't want to be a part of such a society.


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